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tirolerpeter |
"Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? |
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Posts: 851 (03/26/04 09:59:27) GT Club Expert |
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tirolerpeter |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 851 (03/26/04 10:03:05) GT Club Expert |
Welcome to my poll. I obviously don't "believe" that those words belong in a secular pledge. However, I would accept changing it to read: ".....One Nation, WITH VARYING OPINIONS ABOUT GOD, indivisible......"
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Spamcetera |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 239 (03/26/04 11:30:03) |
I wonder how many people would still be supportive if it said "one nation, under Allah"?
Spamcetera |
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tirolerpeter |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 851 (03/26/04 11:56:33) GT Club Expert |
Spamcetera - Amen to that. Or, how about "Vishnu" or "Siva the Destroyer?"
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southpawboston |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 3658 (03/26/04 11:59:16) GT Club Moderator |
how about darwin.
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crobarcars(d) |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 2753 (03/26/04 12:09:05) |
"Supreme Being" or "Playmate of the Month" errrrrrr.......
:) :) :) :) :) :)
"Shouldn't a complimentary beverage tell you what a fine person you are?"- G. Carlin |
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hickie13 |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 1396 (03/26/04 12:12:28) GT Club Moderator |
Personally, I think this political issue is so lame. It's a pledge... whoop-de-do? It never used to have 'under God' until 1954. Then they put it in there. The pledge has been changed probably 5 other times too. Take it out, leave it in. I could care less.
And maybe someone is out there is curious about the history of the Pledge.... read a brief history Here *********************************************************************************
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tirolerpeter |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 851 (03/26/04 12:14:10) GT Club Expert |
Southpaw.. Darwin was terrified of his father-in-law, a Church of England leader. He had pretty well worked out his theory of "Natural Selection" for many years. It wasn't until a (German I think) biology student had written him asking him to critique some ideas that he was considering publishing that Darwin realized that he better get his ideas "on the record" or lose credit for it. Nevertheless, as further research has shown, Darwin was "wrong" about any number of specific things related to evolution. What was and is still most important was that he was willing to ask important questions and follow paths of inquiry without getting "hung up" on "authorized" Christian doctrine. So-called "Intelligent Design" (modern day "Creationists") people are again attacking the rights of people to pursue rational scientific inquiry, and worse, insisting that students be fed their "pseudo-science as "equal" to ideas on evolution. They just won't quit. Anyway, I don't think Darwin would make it into the pledge.
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southpawboston |
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Posts: 3658 (03/26/04 12:34:21) GT Club Moderator |
actually i was joking about darwin. i wouldn't want him to be force-fed to US citizens any more than i would "god" (whoever that may be) for that matter. i also accept that the theory of evolution still has unanswered questions, such as punctuated equilibrium.
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elantragt |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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GT Club Legend
![]() Posts: 4373 (03/26/04 12:42:38) GT Club Founder |
or how about "One nation, under the Elantra GT Club..."
We need your DIY's, reviews, mod ideas, photos and any suggestions you have for the club. Send them to me at submissions@elantragtclub.com. Thanks for all your help! - GT Man ![]() |
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JMONTIGNY |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 879 (03/26/04 12:54:27) Lia Hyundai Parts Mgr. |
I was sent to the principal's office in 1983 (5th grade) for not saying the pledge for that very reason. They decided I did not have to say it if I did not want to. I still feel to this day that it is not right to push religion on people the way they did when i was in school.
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RedRoxCO |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 566 (03/26/04 13:44:53) Rocky Mountain GT'er |
Hey here's a surprise, I don't think it belongs there. As someone pointed out it was added over 50 years after it was written (1892) and came into common usage. In 1954 we were in the McCarthyism era and fighting the Cold War against the "godless" communists and it was changed based on a campaign by the Knights of Columbus (A Catholic men's fraternal society) to help reinforce the fact that we were a nation that embraced God. It has been changed several times from it's very first version, and I personally would prefer it to be "restored" to it's pre-1954 version as the events that created that change are no longer relevant to a pledge to our nation's symbol.
Earlier in the week I was listening to my local talk radio in the morning who had a proponent of the current version on as his guest. The guest was explaining how the use of "God" in this case didn't really even necessarily refer to a Judeo-Christian god (Which of course is entirely false and he knew it) and that it merely recognizes an umbrella term for whatever supreme type of being you might recognize and could just as easily be considered to be Allah if you were Muslim. (Oh yeah then why don't we just substitute Allah, or Buddha or Vishnu or The Goddess???) However at the end, when the host asked him what he would like to happen, the guest, said, "It doesn't really matter because it is in the Lord's hands now". Yeah right. Disingenuous bastard!! Honor Member
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GTblue1 |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 449 (03/26/04 14:08:27) Post Maniac |
Why are people so upset because of it saying "under God"?
Our money says " In God We Trust "But I do say take it out since it was added for the cold war. |
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RedRoxCO |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 566 (03/26/04 15:47:16) Rocky Mountain GT'er |
Good point. I think however it becomes more of an issue now that many states are also trying to pass laws that the Pledge has to be said by every student in public schools on a daily basis, or that it has to be posted in every classroom in a prominent position. I can spend my money without having to necessarily be reminded it is there or state that phrase. If state governments were trying to pass laws that you had to actually say "In God We Trust" to the cashier before they could take your money for your purchase, we might in fact be having a similar discussion.
So in my mind it is more the MANDATORY nature of government laws requiring children whose parents may or may not want their children recognizing a Christian god as the single divine force OVER our nation when there is also supposed to be some kind of nominal separation of church and state. I do agree that the founding fathers were basically all Christians of one kind or another and were more concerned about freedom of religion than freedom from religion. Where my kids go to school (a public Montessori charter school), the teachers and students in their classrooms decided they wanted to say the Pledge, as is, every Friday morning. It was a conscious decision by their school community to honor the flag and our country and I have no problems with this whatesoever and applaud their choice to do so. I'd prefer it if the words, "under God" were not there, but I'm not marching on city hall to get it removed. Their God is not a Christian God, but "it's close enough for goverment work", as they say. I also personally find this CHOICE to be far more meaningful to my children than having my state pass a law that says they have to say it every day as a requirement of their school. Then to me, it simply becomes something you HAVE to do and the words lose all their meaning over time. Honor Member
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tirolerpeter |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 851 (03/26/04 16:13:58) GT Club Expert |
Trust me (pun intended) GTblue1 I would much prefer that "In God We Trust" were NOT printed on our money. It is offensive to me that I have no choice about the matter. Ironically, staunch Christians make much of how their Jesus eschewed earthly riches and in a (apparently uncharacteristic for him) violent act "drove the money changers from the great temple." Yet, they are determined that god acknowledging phrases remain posted throughout our totally secular money and institutions. It is unfortunate that deists simply can't comprehend that they are free to worship in any manner, and speak freely about their beliefs at any time, yet they can't seem to get around to the idea that others may want nothing to do with their beliefs and desire to be left alone about it. Nor, do non-believers want specific dogmatic religious beliefs included in our laws. In fact unlike many deists, atheists do not go around door to door insisting that unless someone gives up their notions about god that they are in some way "doomed" in eternity.
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tirolerpeter |
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Posts: 851 (03/26/04 16:15:31) GT Club Expert |
Southpaw....what is "punctuated equilibrium?" Does it mean: to "bust someone's bubble?"
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GTblue1 |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 449 (03/26/04 17:04:47) Post Maniac |
Those are great points made to my statement.
RedRoxCo: I agree with you that the children should not be made to say the Pledge. It should be a matter of choice otherwise it could lead to "resentment" at being forced to do something, especially with everyone trying to teach children to be individuals and to think on their own. How can one be creative if they are always told what to do. Tirolerpeter: Thank You for your statement. I do not believe in trying to force religion (or non-religion) on to anyone. As a child I was forced to go to Church, Now I do not go. Everyone should have the choice on Who or What they decide to worship for themselves. I do not like the door to door church goers either. It is ones own choice. On a little bit different note. I go through these similar situations everyday. My daughter is 5 1/2 years old and I try not to "make" her do things. I try to reason with her and look at different ways to approach things that upset her or that she doesn't want to do. I want her to be able to make decisions and to look at what might happen if she does or doesn't do in her situations. Some might say that she is to young to do that, but if she is to young what is the correct age? Everyone has their own opinions as to what is appropriate. I know What I was mainly trying to say in this reply is: everyone has a choice and they should be allowed to follow it.
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southpawboston |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 3658 (03/26/04 17:20:32) GT Club Moderator |
TP: if darwin were alive today, it just may have "busted his bubble".
when you consider darwin's theory of evolution in it's simplest sense, natural and environmental forces in which we live drive our selection, which is mediated by random mutations in our genetic material..."selection of the fittest". this was demonstrated with darwin's finches, where, depending on the micro-environment in which they were living, their beaks seemed particularly well adapted. the theory also holds that since mutations are relatively random and have rates which can not be governed too much by outside forces, but rather mostly by our biology (we have pretty fixed generation cycles), we can not adapt too quickly to changing environments (which is one theory behind the demise of the dinasaurs-- a sudden catastrophic event occured, and too few were adequately adapted to survive it). thus evolution must be gradual. but then the theory must also predict that species can not exist "statically" for millions of years either, since gradual mutations from generataion from generation accumulate and "force" change. paleobiologists found about 20-30 years ago that in fact there are a lot of extinct species whose existence was "static" or unperturbed for millions of years, calling in to question the theory of evolution. thus arose the paradox..."punctuated equilibrium". ![]() |
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tirolerpeter |
Re: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance? | ||
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Posts: 851 (03/26/04 17:58:55) GT Club Expert |
Thanks for the lesson. I suspect that biologic evolution occurred and continues to occur in a very disorderly and totally non-linear (in a chronological sense) fashion. While we often hear about "survival of the fittest," unforeseen circumstances inevitably have screwed the equation. I offer as a hypothetical case: If the "fittest" of a species had driven the "less fit" away from a desirable food source located in a lush valley and then a flood or volcano inundated the valley, the "fittest" might well have been doomed, leaving the "less fit" to survive to reproduce. Regardless, the process was/is surely not under the control of some deity.
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southpawboston |
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Posts: 3658 (03/26/04 18:08:02) GT Club Moderator |
that's right. and "fittest" in the strictest sense means passing on the ol' "family pearls" as it were. regardless of what our society deems as "fit", the true definition is by how far your genes will be passed on to future generations. this is why when i see trailerpark families with more kids than teeth i become a little worried. they may be on to something.....
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tirolerpeter |
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Posts: 851 (03/26/04 18:21:06) GT Club Expert |
Nature compensates for lack of: talent, brains, strength, looks, disasters, etc.,etc.. by producing sheer numbers! So yes, some things like the prolific denizens of places like trailer parks concern me too.
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